Pastor Al Q&A - Women Pastors

What do you believe about women being pastors? Well, do you want to know what I believe or what I believe the Bible says about that? It's not really that terribly important what I believe. It is terribly important what the Bible says about it, and so I'll try to help you see what the Bible has to say about that.

I Timothy, chapter 3… Where's your Bibles? (groans) All right, here's the deal, guys. Next week, I'm gonna start talking about end times. You gotta bring your Bibles. Okay? For the next two weeks, I'm gonna talk about the rapture and the millennium and all that stuff, and so you gotta come and we'll be looking up some verses, so come with a Bible with you.

Okay… I Timothy, chapter 3, gives the qualifications for elders, which is another term that's used for pastor. (The term for pastors and elders in the Bible is interchangeable.) And it says in verse one, "It is a trustworthy statement if any man aspires to the office of overseer. It's a fine work that he desires to do. The overseer then must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, etc." So, here we have, as in Titus, and elsewhere, the instruction, that elders, or pastors are to be men.

Look at the previous chapter, I Timothy 2, just above that in verse 11 it says this, "A woman must receive instruction with entire submissiveness, but I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." Now, the position of a pastor is one who teaches, and exercises authority over men. Now, that's what my role is, and so he says, we're not to allow women to do that. Now why would he say that?

Well, back in the time that this was written, like it was pretty radical for women to kind of be accepted. Women getting power, that only came along about the 1920's. Women for a long time since Adam and Eve… the punishment, well, yeah.

Yeah, what you're basically giving is the argument from culture? There's a couple challenges with that. One is, do you think the Bible, should restrict women because the culture does. Think Paul would be right there, if the culture, inappropriately, restricted women from certain things. Do you think Paul would be right to say, "I don't allow this to happen"? Wouldn't that be an affront to their basic rights before God? Aren't we called to be counter cultural, to stand against our culture, to say what the culture believes is not true?

Think about William Wilberforce. Anybody seen that new movie that's out, Amazing Grace? The man who basically stopped, single-handedly the slave trade in England, and eventually here, was a Christian who said, "I don't care what the culture says. I don't care what everybody says is the right thing to do. I don't care what everybody's doing. I don't care how profitable it is. It's wrong, and we should stop it." And he did something about it. So, there's a problem there.

The second problem is that's not what Paul says. Look at the passage again, and he'll give you his explanation. Verses 11 and 12 say that a woman is not to teach, and then verse 13 gives his explanation, "For," he says, "it was Adam who was first created and then Eve." So, he goes back to creation, not to the fall. He goes back to creation, a created order, as his explanation, as to why women are not to teach or exercise authority over men. That's his reasoning. It's not cultural, it's not because women weren't educated or because they weren't smart or weren't capable. It's because of the created order. Now why would God require women not to have a role of being a pastor or leader or teacher, because of creation? Any ideas about that?

Like, kind of the first sin, how it went. The snake tempted Eve, Eve tempted Adam, and they ate the fruit. And one of the punishments after that, when God found out, was to make women submissive to man, and man have authority over a woman, but man has to work hard and woman has to bare children.

Well, I disagree with you in certain aspects. First of all, Paul's argument here is from creation, first of all. Secondly, women were to be submissive to men before the fall. You can see that in the sense that Adam names his wife, both in terms of her personal name and in her creature name. It's the same thing he did for all the animals. It says they were bringing these animals before him to see if any of them would be suitable for a mate, and he named them all. And the point of that in Scripture is he had authority over them. So, God gives him a woman, and he names her, and He gives him authority over her. So right there, that's before the fall, before any kind of curse, before any kind of punishment, and that's what Paul goes to here. He goes to the fact that Adam was created first and therefore had authority over Eve who was created from him.

Now, if we're gonna understand that, without denigrating women, and saying they're second class or not as worthy or not as smart or not as capable or something like that, you have to understand why God set it up that way. And it would take a long time to give a long, detailed explanation of that, but let me just give a quick summary. The Bible, throughout the Bible, uses the marriage, the relationship between men and women, as a picture of His relationship with us. You can see it in the Old Testament, as He calls Israel His bride. And you see it in the New Testament, as He calls the Church the Bride of Christ. And so, there is this marriage picture, that's a man and the woman are illustrating something about God's interaction with His people. He designed it that way. That's what He intended our relationships to be like, because it says that He created us in His image, male and female. So, part of our representing Him, and expressing Him in life, is our interaction as men and women. And so He has a very intentional design of creating two sexes, so that we would interact in a way that reflects on or illustrates how he reacts with us.

You can see that clearly stated in Ephesians, chapter 5, so turn there. This is the model that the Apostle Paul is using in describing the basic relationship in marriage. Verse 22, chapter 5 of Ephesians says, "Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the Church, He himself being the Savior of the body, but as the Church is subject to Christ, so also the wives also ought to be to their husbands in everything." So here's a relationship that the husband is to have the role in the marriage relationships that's reflective of Christ in relationship to the Church. And then he reverses it in the next verse and gives the responsibility of the husbands, "Love your wives, just as Christ also loved the Church, and gave Himself up for her." So here, I'm as a husband to play the role of Christ in my marriage relationship, and my wife is to play the role of the Church in her response to me. That's the image that he gives here.

Now, that's not just an illustration of Paul saying, "Oh, here's a good illustration; I think this is how you guys oughta live out your lives. I think it'd work pretty good." But, it's actually rooted in the creation story. Because if you go down here a little bit further, as he gets through this long discussion of how we're supposed to treat each other in our wives and husbands, he says, in verse 31, "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." Now, where's that found? That's a quote, where's it found? Anybody know? Genesis chapter 2. This is the statement that's made by God about the married couple, as soon as they're created. This is before the fall, as soon as they were created, He said this statement.

Now, notice Paul's commentary on that statement in Genesis chapter 2. This mystery is great, but I'm speaking with reference to Christ and the Church. Now what he's saying is, the mystery of that statement, and what it means is great. It's been hidden, to a certain extent, to us. But what he's saying, it refers to Christ and the Church. It's really about that. That’s why God created a man and a woman, called them to come together and become one, because He wanted to say something about, way in the future, about our relationship with Christ, that we are to come together with him, as one. So He set up in this creation, this wonderful picture, this illustration of men and women coming together, and functioning together in a way that shows us how we should function together with God, through Christ.

I have used the illustration of that, like a drama. How many of you have been in a class play or a school play? Anybody? Are you in one now, Brad? Anybody in one now? Carter! Carter, what are you doing?

Oh, we're doing the musical.

A musical. Okay. What role do you play?

Wayne Frake.

Wayne Frake.

Yeah.

And what is, is Wayne a good guy, a bad guy, a doofus, a…

I don't know; he's a doofus, I'd say.

Kind of doofusy? Why do you think they picked you to play that part?

I don't know.

It's a little bit typecast; I was a little bit worried at first that that's what it was.

So, here this fine man has been picked to play a part because they think that he will play that part well. Let's say we have another person, Amy, let's say you're the fair damsel in this. Why would I pick you for the fair damsel?

Because I look like the part?

Cause you got blond hair and blue eyes. Isn't that the kind of fair damsel thing we have in our minds, you know? And so, I would not pick you. So, we have these two parts. Now, it might turn out that actually, Mr. Norine is actually a very sophisticated, well put together young man, and he's not a doofus at all, but he can act like one. And it may be that Amy is not a fair damsel at all. Maybe she's a retch. I doubt it, but maybe, it could be. She just has the ability to act like a fair damsel on stage. But, what they do on stage, really isn't really indicative of who they are, is it? They're playing a part. They have a role.

Let's say these two people are interacting on the stage, and you remember half your lines, and you remember half your lines, how well do you think the story will go? Just kind of make up whatever you want instead of the stuff you can't remember. I'm not sure we'll get the story line, if we do that, would we? And so, we have to learn our parts, act them out, interact according to the script, and a story is told. Isn't that what a play is all about? What happens when the curtain comes down?

People clap.

They clap. What happens to you? What do you do?

You go back to your normal self?

Yeah, you quite being a doofus, maybe. Any you might quite being a fair damsel. You might be doing… whatever. You might be enemies on stage. You might be friends at back stage. Really, your identity is not found on your roll in the stage; it's found in who you are, right? So, that's what God has done with men and women. He's given us a roll to play in a drama. What is the drama? What's the story line of the drama? Christ and the Church, His redemptive love and sacrifice for us to bring us to Himself that we might be joined together with Him, and His desire that we would submit to Him and honor Him and love Him and cling to Him. That's the story. You play that out in your marriage, between a husband and a wife, the husband sacrificially loving his wife for her benefit, the woman respecting her husband and following him and loving him in response is a story for the world to see of what the gospel is all about if you don’t play those two rolls like that, the story is corrupted.

If the woman becomes the leader, what does it say about Christ and the Church? If the woman becomes the authority and the teacher and the man sits under her authority, what does it say about Christ and the Church? It's upside down, isn't it? It would defeat the whole story. And that's what God has done in marriage.

Now, does that mean that men are more important, or more valuable, more significant than woman? Not at all. Who's more important in the play? Which character? Well, if you don't have either one, you don't have a play, right? They're both essential to the play. No matter what their interactive rolls are, you can't tell the story without either one. Somebody has to play one part, and somebody has to play the other part. If we don't do that, we don't have anything. So it is with men and women. Both are essential, god-honoring parts.

And what happens to the men after everything is done and we're joined together with Christ in the end? What role do we play? The bride. We have the odd role now. Then, we will join the women in being in that other roll in relationship to Christ. It's a temporary roll that we play here. So, think that should say two things to us. Women, don't denigrate your roll; honor God in it. Men, don't get puffed up; it's not anything significant about you that put you in that position, so honor women, respect them, love them the way your supposed to, cause in the end, we will be one together as the bride of Christ. And ultimately, what's the purpose of all this? That the story get told.

I want to be able to say to you, not in perfection, but at least substantially, "Do you know what it's like to be in a relationship to Christ, to be a Christian? Look at my marriage." What would you learn there? You'll learn I love my wife. You'll learn that I care for her. I sacrifice my one time, effort, expense, preferences, and everything else, to make life as best I can for her. I honor her in my life. What does she do? She loves me and delights in me, submits to me and derives benefit from our relationship, we both do. It's a mutual, loving, relationship. Now, that's what it's like to be a Christian, with the greatest Person in the world, Who invites you into a relationship with Him, where He sacrifices His life for your benefit, and you get the benefit of being in a relationship with Him, and all His provision for you, and all His care for you, and all He asks is that you'd love Him and follow Him.

Now, that's a pretty good illustration of what it means to be a Christian, don’t you think? And I want my marriage to be able to say that. And in order to be able to say that, there have to be certain rolls that are played. But I have to understand, they're rolls. They're not my identity. I am not inherently more important than my wife. I'm her leader, by roll. And so, I value her as a person. She's my partner. And I'm not a despot with her. I’m not a dictator. I'm not a person who commands her. I'm a person that loves her, and tries to sacrifice for her. So that's, I think, what that roll's all about. And that's why women are not to be pastors, because God initially set it up to have a certain kind of roll between men and women, and if we turn that upside down, we violate that basic purpose of reflecting the gospel. Does that make some sense to some of you? Get something out of that? Any follow-up questions? Yes?

What if pastors are to be merely equals with the congregation in a sense? And the congregation, everyone were to be like a pastor and everyone would be educated and be able to kind of help each other out?

Yeah, certainly that is true, to a point. I don't consider myself one bit better than anyone else in the church, and I'm not one bit more important or significant or anything else. And yet, God has placed in His kingdom, authority, and He's placed in the church authority, not just of a single pastor, but of a group of elders to be the leaders of the congregation. And that's clear through Scripture, too. So, how are we to do that? Not lording it over the church, but loving them and building respect so that they follow us. That's the kind of relationship we have.

Certainly everybody in the church is a minister, and my job, by Ephesians 4, is to equip you to do ministry, because we're all ministers. My ministry is to be a shepherd of the church. Your ministry might be something else. And so, there's an equality and a difference, just like gifting. We don't all have the same gifts, we don’t have all the same calling, we don’t have all the same authority. God has given us different levels of that to function in the church. And so pastors have been given an authority to lead the church and oversee the church. Where the body has a responsibility to follow them within the limits of their capability in terms of no pastor is perfect; we should not follow them into sin.